Adding this content, all sudden become interesting task for me, as it's need to have functional calories/fat processing system in the characters organs. This is interesting challenge. I'm come up with this theses about how it should works:
- Character should not need micromanagement with every day eating just to maintain weight. Events with eating or things like fitness should be used only to the weight changes.
- All changes to body shoud be automatic, based only on the one source: RNA gene "generic.calories". If it have positive value, some of calories should be processed to fat. If value negative, some fat will be burned. If value is zero - no weight changes.
- Every hour should be processed some calories but not more than one tenth (? need to be balanced later) of current body weight.
- Characters shoud have gene that control metabolism - how fast they gain or lost weight from calories.
- Character should have some mechanic for the fat distribution around body - breasts, belly, etc. And DNA genes to control it.
- Character should have independed processing calculations between food calories and food volume. This give possibility to emulate various food (and do stuffing scenarios in future).
If someone have something to say about this, please, be free to do it in the comments.
Also metabolism can be affected by diet and exercise.
ReplyDeleteAlso consider as a flip side muscle mass Vs fat if you really want to get complicated and the amount of muscle needed to produce the same amount of movement.
It can get very complicated. Also what do we count as exercise? working as a waitress, adventuring or at the "fun" house sounds pretty tiring.
If you want to get super technical where are the muscles are? and are you a stamina or sprint type.
I imagine swimming is full body, battling mostly upper, running lower and waitressing stamina based.
I think you have to either draw a line or think of what the minimum is you can do with the option to build out later with more detail.
>>Also consider as a flip side muscle mass Vs fat if you really want to get complicated and the amount of muscle needed to produce the same amount of movement.
DeleteI not planed to include muscule in system, as it's very hard to tie it with already present game mechanic. These plans only about weight/calories/fat.
Already present events just change stat generic.str directly. If muscule will be in the system, I need to do major reworking of all events that use this stat.
For now, my plan is: events that can change calories, will have single string: proxy.addStat("generic.calories", X); and this will be enough. If it can change strength - it will have similar srting for it.
Also I do not script routine calculations in the every event. It's calculated based on the time passing and current stats. So, fat will affect stamina, speed, etc. by itself.
Sounds totally OK to me, at least. Quite like pregnancy, fat should have an effect on stats.
DeleteOf course it could be nice to see variations in the way proxies keep gaining/losing weight, but that brings to at least MY mind an endless pit of different variables and deriving descriptions. Perhaps leave such finesses to later time or... hm... let them gain most around areas where they already have most width already? There ARE noticeable variations in the way ladies gain and lose weight in RL, but only you know how it goes with proxies, methinks.
IMHOP use the ancient management principle KISS (keep it simple, stoopid :)) and use only few parameters.
Politely, Tsap
As recommended above I would try to keep it simple. Using excel I've developed a fairly simple set of equations that relate body part size from weight vs. height ratios. It uses two sets of equations (one for initial body shape setup and another for the actual weight gain). The spreadsheets allows one to add weight directly to various parts of the body (breasts, belly, butt, hips, forearms, etc.) or according to body type (apple, pear, beaker, hourglass, etc.). Using a simple addition of weight to body or body part it determines the growth in inches on a person at that body location. If interested I could email you the spreadsheet (it does if for both male and females (didn't apply it to futas but it could be adapted). You can tailor it however you want by playing with the ratios applied in the formulas.
ReplyDeleteYes, it will be interesting to see your equations. It can help me to script weight distribution part.
Delete=CAUTION: TLDR=
ReplyDeleteOkay, so you're probably thought about genes effecting weight distribution. And yes, possibly also metabolism as well. But the interesting thing about genes and weight is that the pathway from food to fat is far, far more complex than people realise. Not sure how much detail you want to cram in, however so I'll try and summarise things a little from what I worked on for a final year presentation.
Before we start, genes and gene expression are two different things. You can have genes which encourage wg, but are not expressed, and vice versa. The expression of some genes depends on other factors like environment, which is why some thin people massively balloon when they switch from healthy homecooking to cheap calorie-bomb college plans.
1 - Absorption
There are enzymes and chemicals that are used to assist the conversion of food particles/nutrients into forms that the body can absorb. As an example, there are genes whose expression regulate bile production (in the case of lipids aka fat). After being converted into triglyceride, it can then enter the bloodstream and either be stored or used.
Some anti-WG products exploit this step by preventing fat abrption, which is VERY dangerous, since it is needed for fat-soluble vitamins. Note also that some of said vitamins are toxic in high doses (eg; vitamin A). But if your body can handle the extra energy load, this can be used to encourage weight gain.
2 - Storage
Ok, so you have energy pumping in your bloodstream in chemical form. What happens next? Well, there are cell receptors and the like that regulate the various energy pathways available. Gene expression can influence the following aspects of actual fat storage.
- Form
This isn't what people often realise, but not all the potential energy absorbed by the body is expended via metabolic activity, or stored as fat. Glucose for example, can be converted to and from glycogen (storable form of glucose) depending on identified bodily needs.*
- Location
Yes, this is what everyone thinks about when they think of 'fat genes'. Genetics does influence where fat is stored, but localised weight gain is beyond today's science. For now.^ But there are diseases out there we hardly know anything about that can cause some hideous-looking changes in fat and/or muscle distribution.
3 - Release
Yes, there are genes which determine how and when your body calls upon its voluptuous reserves. If triggered, there are pathways that re-convert stored energy once more into transportable forms - losing some of the energy in the process. There are also things which slow down this process.
4 - Body
Yes, some people are naturally predisposed to gain weight in certain areas, regardless of human meddling. As mentioned under 'location', this is shit we don;t know enough about yet to mess with, but plausible in medium to squishy sci-fi. But the old 'hourglass/apple/pear' typology is rather unscientific when you look at the whole body; that's driven in part by one-tracking thinking along the lines of hormone expression.
5 - Mentality
There are several known genes that affect how we feel about food on several levels, from cravings to fullness and beyond. There are also drugs than can imitate them, which is where the marijuana 'munchies' come from. Keep[ in mind however, that you'll still be limited by all other factors above.
My TLDR:
ReplyDelete1. Use flags (or modifiers) to realistically portray if/how genes are triggered by environmental factors. EG; exercising might reduce calories more for certain characters.
2. Genes and predisposition for wg can make things easier or harder for various reasons. This means DIFFICULTY LEVELS! Woo!
3. Keep genetics in mind when writing more fantastical pathways; it will help keep things under control, or help suspend disbelief.
3. You can draw off body types if you like, but more realistic approach will vary for each body part, with some overflow if you don't want IMMOBILITY-INDUCING BOOBS or whatnot.
4. After a point, overeating will has diminishing returns. Bodies can only produce so much insulin*, or bile, or whatever other biological limits. That includes stomach capacity. People eventually hit their limits.
4b.Breaking limits will and should lead to BAD THINGS. If nothing else, it forces players to think moar.
5. Genetics is fixed & p. much impossible to change on a full-body scale(without sci-fi/magic). Character genetics should stay constant, but IG events can/should change what effect they have all together.
6. Genes affect other genes. Consider feedback loops or regulation loops
Hopefully this gets y'all thinking. If you don't know what I'm talking about, wiki/google is your friend.
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Notes from p1:
* Diabetes type 2 occurs in people that consume more glucose than the body can regulate by producing insulin (converts glucose > glycogen, which is why insulin can lead to wg). Produce too much insulin, and cells react less strongly due to being 'bathed' in the stuff. Sweet-toothed gainers, beware!
^ THAT SAID, there are also gene expression-derived chemicals which can destroy fat cells or encourage the growth of new fat cells. Combining the two can lead to fat redistribution, though the problem facing science is we don't know enough about how it works in humans. All we know is that by inserting a slow-releasing form of these triggering chemicals into rats, it will encourage the division of fat cells. The more new small fact cells you have, the more weight you will gain in that area, since small fat cells absorb more energy from the bloodstream than smaller ones.
Food for thought above (and vice versa :)), no tldr:s at all, I think. Endocrinologists don't know it all and their hands are tied for proper clinical research on humans being criminalized. Exellent points made above, yet there are even more things to consider with WG. Psychology, behaviorism, etc.
ReplyDeleteHowever, one very stupid question: Is there a concept of sloth (laziness, aversion of exercise, idk) introduced in game? I try to explain what I mean.
I am a very poor player. I do not plan too much ahead and as a well-meaning fool I try to have my proxies really have good time and not leave for poor management.
I would truly love to find one day that my "girls" have grown too comfort-loving to leave the house. LOL.
"Oh dear... they have grown too fat! What to do NOW?".
Best wishes, Tsap
Oh, I have great trust on Dr. Genki in solving the mysteries of this menacing WG problem. A few tests should be all he needs to develop a brilliant series of drugs or more. :)
DeleteTo all commenters:
ReplyDeleteIt's seems that peoples very interested in WG content. :) But please take it easy - I do not have plans to emulate RL biology fully. It's do not have point, in the game world where you can meet a living goddess. :) Level of detalization will be not deeper then needed to calculate and show changes in the characters visual descriptions and stats. Also, I suppesed negative health effects to the minimum - or it's will be no fun. So, there will be no diabete or insulin problem.
Limits... In the past, as I begin to design this game, I already have in mind, that I don't like to have any hardcoded limits. Only soft limits that can be pushed if player found a way to do so. And finding such ways is a part of game process. Gene system and organ emulations needed for this certain purpose: even I myself do not now exactly what can be pushed and how far, as characters bodies is pretty complex and linked together system.
For example - right now character breasts size not have upper limit, but they have weight, and being too heavy can leave character immobile. But this can be compensated by the strenght. If you found way to make the character stronger - then she can carry larger breasts. And etc.
But of coruse things that breaking common logic (at least - game world logic) is considered as a bugs. But I like to have have something in between sometimes fully absurd-like in some parts CoC, and too real-like world. What level I seek - is something like in hentai OVA's that have supernatural and fantasy characters and magic in scenario. :)
H. Coder wrote: "I do not have plans to emulate RL biology fully."
ReplyDeleteThank you, Sir. I have a strong feeling your players would not really need that either - and I kinda thought diabetes was mentioned above just to complete the picture, not as a wish for content.
The interest in WG could come for several reasons. I, for one have sought it in games to please my own FA-fetish and was hooked immediately as I saw the possibility in your game.
The choice of pictures pleased me a LOT, if I may say so and the backlaying sense of humor in the game felt in the same time comforting and also fascinating.
Excellent work! (You know it, but I think it could be good thing to see you have gained followers who recognize it, too)
Hmm...
ReplyDeleteMind including in-mouth ejaculations as an effect?
An interesting article I read recently, that appears to be somewhat related. The author, a game developer, was thinking about adding support for hunger and eating (and possibly weight gain) to his game, but most games that incorporate hunger make it fairly boring and, as it generally doesn't have any real game effects, tends to be annoying to many players.
ReplyDeleteSo the thinking goes, if you _have_ to include food and eating, why not make it more interesting and useful by tying it into meaningful game effects with observable consequences? (plus weight gain, for those of us interested in that ;)
http://tharsis-gate.org/articles/imaginary/EATING~1.HTM
I know you've already said you didn't see any need or interest in emulating RL biology too realistically, and I tend to agree with that view, but I though this guy had an interesting take on the subject and some good ideas.